Friday, December 9, 2011
This facebook post got a lot of comments. Apparently my big mouth is good for more then just rooster crowing....actually chicken clucking but whose counting. So, I thought I'd share it here. :)
Ok, I'm pissed off. I am the first person who believes in equality of ALL cultures. I was even the first to commend a school for incorporating ALL belief systems into their 'holiday' activities. I am accepting of everyone and every belief system that celebrates at this time of year. I could care less if someone wished me a Happy Hanukkah, even tho I don't look Jewish. They wished me well and THAT is all that matters. I am NOT a Christian. I do not believe that Christians have the corner market on this holiday season......BUT, and its a big one........that being said.......I am completely appalled that Merry Christmas is now considered a dirty slur. Even tho I am NOT a christian I say MERRY CHRISTMAS. I was just informed that some kids from our local school have been suspended for saying Merry christmas or something to that effect. How asinine. Our youth walk around on a daily basis using expletives that could make a sailor blush and the schools decided MERRY CHRISTMAS is worse?? Are you kidding me?? I think the school boards need to remove their head from that posterior orifice. My sister informed me that in retail she was forbidden even years ago to say Merry Christmas. That the politically correct way was Seasons Greetings or Happy Holidays and while neither of these offend me neither would MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! what the hell is wrong with society. Even if someone wished me a Happy Kwanzaa I would return their greeting happily. Society is so set on accepting everyone that it is alienating the majority. This time of year is suppose to be about PEACE...LOVE and ACCEPTANCE. I am a Pagan. We celebrate YULE but I am not so ignorant to not accept or extend a MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!! Man, I am so glad we homeschool. This is yet another example of how institutions and government try to strong arm people into submission. NO MORE. what ever happened to freedom of speech?? I can not see how they can uphold such a rule or how they can enforce it. We have children killing themselves from bullying everyday in our country and THIS is what the schools have chosen to have ZERO TOLERANCE with?? Get with the program. Stop teaching and breeding HATE into our children. Even tho I am NOT a Christian and Merry Christmas means something entirely different to me then it does a Christian Family........I wish you all a MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR.
So, here I am still playing "chicken" with Trent Hills Town Council. Our deadlines came and went and the only thing laid....was eggs. No charges. However last Monday (Dec 5th) we received a letter from a Belleville Barrister informing us that Trent Hills had retained them and has instructed them to commence with Provincial Offences Court IF my 'girls' are not removed by December 12th. Well MERRY CHRISTMAS to you. Oh geeeeeeez......apparently you can't say that anymore either. I wonder if a bylaw will be concocted to enforce that as well??? That's a whole nuther rant!!!! Knowing full well that my deadline was fast approaching I've gone about my regular routine because I have no intention of caving. I do not do well with being threatened and will stand my ground.
So, like most days my phone rang with someone on the other end wanting to talk chicken talk with me. THIS particular phone call was VERY DIFFERENT. I had submitted an application to the Canadian Constitutional Foundation in hopes of drumming up some help in the legal end of things. I am still trying to contain myself. I know this is not a for sure thing but man oh man....am I STOKED. I still have to go before a board of directors and a board of members but this organization is interested in taking on my case. These are the same people who represent the Raw Milk guy Micheal Schmidt. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOO.
So aside from shaming them publicly I may have a chance at beating them LEGALLY as well!!! I do not go a single day without someone in our town voicing words of support for what we're doing. Of course that means something.....BUT.....to have an organization who defneds the constitutional Rights of Canadians offering to help us.....THAT just floats my boat!!
Stay tuned for the continuing Saga of AS the Feathers Ruffle!!
Thursday, October 20, 2011
Wow....how my life has changed in such a short period of time. Something that started out as a homeschooling project has thrown me into the center of something huge. The lesson that just KEEPS ON GIVING!!! LOL I may be learning WAYYYYYYYY more then I bargained for. For anyone who may be following my blog or my endless updates on facebook you are aware my Backyard chickens have ruffled more then a few feathers. They did get a temporary stay but they are back on the chopping block. We only have until October 31st to remove them or I've been notified that I will be officially charged. With many internal battles I have decided to stand my ground. I have not been presented with ONE single rock solid reason for having to get rid of them. The absolute ridiculous notion that my 7 hens might somehow hurt the farmers "trying to make a living" is far reaching for a valid reason.
This proposal was never taken seriously. Council had their minds made up before we ever entered into talks. I was very disappointed at how the first meeting was handled with behaviour like rooster crowing and chicken jokes made by our very own council members. Not very professional or adult like. THESE are the elected officials that we are supposed to entrust our decision making to?? The very people who are sitting in council chambers mocking and belittling citizens who come to them with an issue?? This does NOT lay down the foundation for a 'trusting relationship'. Elected Officials (not just in our municipality but Nationwide) need to realize that contrary to popular belief, 'the people' have a voice EVERY DAY....not just on election day.
People have rights. Food and food choice is part of a standard of living and is a universal human right. I am simply asking for the basic human right to raise my own food on a small scale. Naysayers all sing the EXACT same tune. Their opinions are only formed on fear and ignorance. Fear of the unknown and change.....and ignorance of the FACTS. The very first concerns of noise...smell...and health concerns can all be resolved by three little words............
As with any pet the owner has to be responsible. If my dog is noisy or being a nuisance, she is scolded and brought inside. If she poops, we clean it up. If she is sick, we get her medical help. So now that all of the initial concerns have been dealt with.....what are the next set of concerns?? Ya know.....to date, I've not had one person have any other concerns. ANNNNNNNND should someone have concerns, bring it to me. I am not unapproachable. More then likely the concern can be dealt with amicably and to the satisfaction of all parties concerned. What I do not like is....being told what to do without a just and reasonable rationale behind it AND nosy naysayers who think that their rights are more important then mine. BUT....I think everyone already came to that conclusion. LOLOLOL
On an UBER POSITIVE note......
I am overwhelmed by the support I've been receiving from friends and strangers a like. Since making my stand I have been interviewed by reporters from both newspapers and TV stations who are "baffled" by the "unfounded decision". I have been invited to join the Canadian Liberated Urban Chicken Klub that originated in Calgary AND asked to attend the 2011 Bring Food Home Conference....connecting those individuals and organizations who are working towards a sustainable food system. I can't even explain the many feelings that are running through me right now. Give it time tho.....I'm never at a loss for words for long!!!
Monday, September 5, 2011
As the title states I'm not a huge supporter of the Canadian Cancer Society. That being said, I can usually be guilted into donating my hard earned money. Trust me....I've received many boo's and hisses and down right dirty looks for my opinion but....MEH, I'm use to it. If you know anything about me you know I've never been ORTHODOX to say the least. So, once again I was out shopping and nailed the minute I got into the store to donate money to this WORTHY CAUSE. I gave my daughter money to donate because I'm not one to force my opinions on even my children but declined for myself. However huge guilt came over me when I saw the woman who was asking for my support get very emotional when I explained I'm not a supporter of the Cancer Society. UGH...I hate that. So, I dug a little deeper and mustered up change as I rarely carry cash on my person.
I took this opportunity to explain WHY I don't support this cause. I could tell my info was going in one ear and out the other and she just wanted me to give up my money but perhaps some day the words I spoke will come back to her. If you've actually made it this far into my note then I'll assume you are a true friend and know I'm not some cold hearted b**ch who just doesn't like giving up her money. On the contrary. I will give whole heartedly to most causes that I don't think are fraudulent. My whole family are huge supporters of anything that helps make this world a better place. Sadly my own Father was a supporter of the Cancer Society.....we didn't discuss it much. My words fell on deaf ears most times anyways and were wrote off as one of Kelly's notions.
While I commend the Cancer society for their efforts and their work and their help provided to the Cancer patients....they do this based on a huge LIE!!! First they claim a portion of their money goes to Cancer Research. LIE. Why are they still researching when there is Cancer Cures already out there. I can name 2 well known Institutes that have cured hundreds of thousands of patients of their Cancer long after the medical establishment gave up on them and told them to go home to die. NICE. I know of a well known supplement that has cured Cancer at a success rate much larger then Orthodox medicine. It's success rate was so high that Doctor's from the medical community tried to BUY the recipe for a million dollars from the maker and when all attempts failed they made it so she couldn't operate her clinic.
So, I ask.....why are we pouring our hard earned money into a Society that doesn't follow up on ALL CURES?? I'll tell you why.....Cancer among most diseases makes them too much money. We already KNOW these Alternative Institutes are there and are curing people everyday.....what if we poured our funds into more research for them?? People sneer at Natural Health cures and the first thing they say is......where's your proof?? You mean aside from the hundreds of thousands of cured patients??? Well Rene Caisse had documented proof galour but she still found herself in COURT trying to fight for her rights to help people. Right here in Bracebridge CANADA....Cancer was being cured as far back as the 1920's. Maybe instead of naysayers bashing such cures, if they actually supported them, we might have ourselves more cures for most diseases. What is more important......finding a cure or being a right fighter no matter what course of action that involves??? Pull your head out of that postierior orifice of yours and stop being so gullible.
So what's the next step?? Instead of possibly looking into the natural therapies people go to great lengths to prove that these therapies are not always successful. And....they are right. However, does Orthodox medicine have a 100% success rate?? Hell no. So why is it people will overlook that FACT and dismiss Alternative therapies as bunk because they don't have a 100% success rate?? This baffles me. I know many people, some in my family, who took round after round of radiation and chemo and still were met with a disastrous deadly results. These same people were given endless studies (by me) of Natural Cures and Clinics to research or better yet....go to. Did they try any of those options??? Nope...nadda. What were they afraid of?? If nothing else......use these alternative therapies in conjunction with the orthodox route. The worst that will happen is....your immune system and body will be supported while you inject those poisons into your body.
It's time for people to stop listening solely to the all mighty medical community and to start using their own brains.....the information is out there!!!
Here is the video's from the seventies that tell part of the story. There are links to louder version of the video if these ones are too quiet (http://medicalsuff.multiply.com/video/item/1)
Part 1 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZTFqKMlCCo
Part 2 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8JLgYPs0vY
Part 3 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0WcW7skHEE
Part 4 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k_nW-b-XmQ
Sunday, August 7, 2011
by Kelly Nicholls Bacher on Sunday, May 6, 2007 at 2:28pm
Funny.....no one ever realizes how debilitating an illness can be. No one understands until low and behold you get it. Two years ago I was a vision of youthfulness and health. Ok.....maybe not as young as I wish I was but I think age is just a number. I was a single mom, worked midnights, had a small child and a busy life. So it seemed normal that somedays I was exhausted.
I drove for a living so when the tiredness started affecting my work I knew something was up. I decided I was overworked and stressed out. To make a long story short my Mom saved my life. I had left my thyroid condition too long and since the day of diagnosis.....it has been an uphill battle.
My boyfriend (now husband) at the time proposed to me that November......happiest time of my life right??? Well....yes and no. I was put on medication a few weeks after his proposal. I had gained 25 pounds for what seemed no reason at all. That January my sister had all of us to her place for a "girls weekend". I like all my sisters LOVE to go out and party hard. Needless to say I was home sipping tea by 11:30pm and quite happy about it. I WAS EXHAUSTED!!!!!!! I figured it would just take time for my meds to kick in. So I went about my wedding plans and got my dress CUSTOM measured and made in China. The day it arrived I was never so happy. OK.....not true. The colour was off so I was stressing out until my parents were almost in tears by its beauty. My Dad will not say something is beautiful unless its beautiful.....so his input made it all right.
Mom and I raced upstairs and.......IT DIDN"T FIT!!!!!!!! That means I gained more weight on top of the 25 pounds. *sigh* So not to worry because "whats 25 pounds??" Time passed and I still was not feeling well and was chronically exhausted. I eventually quit work because I was afraid of falling asleep at the wheel. This gave me more time to plan our wedding and spend time with my daughter which was AWESOME. As awesome as this was my health was not getting any better....it was getting worse. Finally I went to a endocrinologist....he was mortified at my state. By the time my wedding rolled around I had 2 visible bald spots, no eyebrows, no eyelashes, hadn't had a menstrual cycle in over a year, my skin was extremely dry and bleeding, my nails were almost non-existant, my weight was so out of control that I hardly look like the same person, and come 3 in the afternoon I'm ready for bed.
No one knows this and I can't believe I'm actually going to put this down in print but I had to buy a second wedding gown and then by the wedding it still had to be reconstructed. It was horrible. I cried oceans but tried to not let my inner torture show. We were married and it was the happiest day of my life. I wasn't the princess I wanted to be but I still got my prince charming. I still battle everyday. They tell me my thyroid levels are perfect now but I honestly don't feel like me yet. My weight is still out of control....I still have no eyebrows....I've had 3 miscarriages.....my skin is still chronically dry and I still tire very easy. No one knows how horrible it is. Maybe if enough people know what the signs, symptoms and dangers are, the public will be enlightened. Maybe sufferers will be enlightened. Don't let it go.....don't write it off as stress or overworked because by the time you get around to fixing it.....it could be much worse then it had to be. Let us help eachother.
The sad thing about these kinds of diseases are....no one can see the effects. I'm not bleeding.....or bed ridden......or missing extremities....or anything that tells society I'm sick. This torment is all internal. People with such ailments are labelled lazy and fat......instead of sick and tired. I've recently gone back to a lifestyle that use to come so natural to me. I'm hoping it is these changes that will bring me back to the old me. I'll keep everyone posted.
Wednesday, July 6, 2011
YAY!!!!!!! Another small victory. For now our chickens have a temporary stay. The town is going to get an opinion poll from the public to make their decision. I'm not sure how they go about doing that. What I do know is this......I WILL NOT QUIT FIGHTING!!! I was more then disappointed in our Mayor last night but was so thankful for the support his fellow members of council showed us. It was obvious by the comments made that our original letter and proposal was not even read when he spoke of chickens getting loose and running through the streets. Our chickens are properly housed and do not run amuck. Before the meeting even started my family and I overheard crowing and chicken jokes coming from the council meeting room. How very mature. When we were asked if we wanted to add anything I wanted to say....oh....by the way.....roosters crow....chicken cluck. We don't have any roosters.
Tonight we had 2 reporters come and interview us and took pictures of our "girls". I'm hoping that with more publicity will come more support. My daughter was over the moon excited and said she felt "famous". It is exciting but sad that we have to go through all of this to save our pets. They aren't hurting anyone....
Tuesday, June 14, 2011
Our battle to keep our backyard chickens continues. We meet with Town Council on June 21. I've never been to a council meeting before so I have no idea what to expect or even how to open such a conversation. I suppose throwing myself at the mercy of the council would be too dramatic?? LOL In other news.....A small victory has been won, as on June 13 it was official that Quinte West has approved Backyard chickens and is amending zoning to accommodate the maintenance of a small backyard flock!!!!! YAY!! This couldn't have come at a better time.
Council has given us 2 days to collect our petition signatures but even in such a short time we're seen great support. Surprisingly we got many of the names from the surrounding businesses just by canvassing yesterday. Many comments were......with the price of food and the fear of what they put in our food.....YOU BETCHA!!!
I've considered selling knitted chickens for people to buy in support of the chickens. LOL Too much?? Over the top do you think?? Kids love them.....I could see the fad catching on.
On the sour note.....why is it certain people are just such a**holes?? When I met at Town Office yesterday I specifically asked what the complaint was about me 'girls'. What was it about the chickens that made a concerned citizen call in with a report. I said....was it noise, smell, fear of illness, too close to property lines.....what?? The Bylaw officer point blank said, Oh there was no specific complaint....just that you had chickens.
Anyways, I'm not going to dwell on the ignorance of some insignificant pot stirrer....we are going to bask in the delight of Quinte West's Victory. Congrats to you......and wish us luck!!!
Saturday, June 11, 2011
So, my husband made a visit to the Town Office to find out what the problem is/was/or is gonna be. He was told we are not allowed to house livestock. Livestock??? Livestock to me is cows or pigs but certainly not birds. There is no mention of chickens in these bylaws because I have scoured those bylaws front and back and upsidedown. NOTHING. And, it is not like I have 200 chickens running amock wreaking havoc upon the community or worse the roadways.
I have 7 laying hens that have a proper chicken house which allows for free range running, pecking, scratching, eating, pest control, or just plain rolling and frolicking in the sunshine by day.........and a proper nesting/roosting area where they go to bed by night and are locked up tight to keep them safe. I have them in our garden where we move their chicken house around so they have a fresh area in which to graze every week or two. Of course, this is a win-win set up because they till and weed our garden for us. Sadly, this year we aren't able to have a working garden because a barn frame is being erected on site which will take up that garden area but in the meantime it belongs to the chickens.....or naughty children!!! LOL As you can see this picture has my 12 year old daughter in it....lots of room for a few chickens. You can certainly see they are housed properly.
So, in the meantime what is the real problem??? Even tho the bylaw officer "says" the complaint was they didn't feel we had them housed "properly"....I think they are full of it. Hmmmmmmmm.......what is your definition of "proper"....how much more proper can you get?? Have you seen how mass producers "properly" house their chickens??? It's reprehensible. [Sorry to all chicken farmers....I just couldn't do that]
Mass production sticks their layers in something called 'battery cages'.....even the name leaves little to be desired. "Most farms have 4 or 5 birds per cage. The cages being approx. 20 inches x 20 inches" which are stacked on top of one another leaving it possible for feces to fall below. "Over 2,000,000 chickens die in their cages each year from disease caused by improper control of faeces clearing." So, I ask you.....THIS is what you consider 'proper' housing?? I think not. [Quoted from http://www.downthelane.net/battery.php]
Of the 2 previous pictures....I'm sure you can see an obvious difference.
What's the next step?? the next step is to start a petition[already done], circulate it and try to fight for our Girls. I say our girls because they are much more then egg producers. We've had these girls going on 2 years now. We 'hand raised' them from day olds and have watched them grow into the beautiful mature hens they are today. We homeschool and my daughter did a school project on them. We've had children from all over come to visit our chickens which is so educational. It teaches children to be responsible pet owners and where our food comes from. not to mention, kids get quite a charge out of collecting the eggs. We have an apartment complex in our town and many of the elderly love to watch them....not to mention they enjoy the eggs we give them as well.
This day and age when Society is advocating sustainable green living and touting how we need to get back to basics....how can they allow such an injustice to occur??? They want people to be self sufficient and yet they squash anyone who tries. They want people to be organic and natural but they make it impossible to do. I've always been a Naturalist. I like to know whats in my food.....what better way to know then to eat what you grow and grow what you eat. Call me a tree hugger....call me radical...but wouldn't you like to eat fresh, healthy food free of chemicals....pesticides and antibiotics?? Chickens are not the problem.....they are part of the solution!!!!!! They eat all your table scrapes which reduces municipal waste. They produce a rich fertilizer high in nitrogen which eliminates the need for petrochemical fertilizers AND replenishes our depleted soils. They are a form of natural pest control which stops the use of toxic pesticides. How can any of this be wrong?? This puts an end to the vicious cycle and replaces it with a healthy cycle. If you put good things in....they put good stuff out....which produces even better produce....which they in turn eat....and the cycle continues. Just like our recycling motto....reduce-reuse-recycle....it all goes hand in hand. Healthy soil=healthy food, isn't this why we are huge composters now?? These chickens ARE my personal composters!!!!! Isn't this why droves of people flock to garden centers for manure?? Why not have it right in your own back yard???
Please help by signing our petition located at http://www.petitiononline.com/hens4all/petition.html
Monday, January 3, 2011
Its been awhile since my last blog but some events that have taken place have prompted me to sit down and write about my ponderings. We hear all the time about school yard bullies and how zero tolerance in our schools aren't getting any better. Now it is not just that one infamous bully but a group of meanies. An interesting example of the mob mentality that is becoming more prevalent is on the internet. I can't comment about every forum or chat room but I can tell you that Mobs of Mothers are relentless. It is no wonder children are growing up to be bullies if this is the example they are setting.
For the record, I am NOT talking about a good old fashioned debate. I am talking about groups of people who band together for nothing other then the sole purpose of ridding the thread of the NON-CONFORMER. If it is a group in which is one sided then the non-conformer has no business being there unless they are a sucker for punishment and then the onus is on them. Sadly, I'm guilty of doing this. I've been that lonely sheep who has wandered into the room of pack wolves for the very purpose of flexing my muscles and voicing that I'M NOT AFRAID OF THE BIG BAD WOLF. It gets my juices flowing. THIS is also not what I'm referring to.
I'm referring to either a group, a thread, or a discussion board that has two opposing opinions. One is neither right or wrong........JUST DIFFERENT. However a funny thing happens. People seek out their comrades and prepare for battle. You know that saying "all is fair" well apparently these groups love to employ this concept.
The thing I find fascinating is their tactics are downright juvenile. They want people to take them serious yet they act like children. One incident that comes to mind is the foul profanity that comes streaming from their mouths....err...well...fingertips. Apparently you are not suppose to comment on this either as it makes for much more cussing to follow. The next tactic is blantant lying about whats been said and if you quote their words you're accused of trying to make them look stupid. No my Dear, you are doing a FINE job all on your own. The next tactic is mocking. This equates to nothing more then the school yard bullying. This would all be fine however there is always that ONE person who eggs on the others and before you know it you have a MOB. At this point the discussion topic is lost and it has resorted to hair pulling and eye gouging.
Needless to say I did not make great BFF's when my comment to all of this was "I find it difficult to carry on an intelligent conversation when people resort to name calling, brow beating and profanity. It does little for their cause and takes away from the quality of the conversation. So I soon bore of filtering thru the fodder to see if there is anything of substance to reply to."
Eeeeeeeeeeeep....I think they ran screaming from their computers to stop themselves from embedding a hammer in the monitor.
So who are the worst offenders of this?? Generally people who have too much time on their hands. They sit in the comfort of their cozy home judging the world from their cushioned computer chair. From my experience the worst are stay at home mothers. Sadly, at this moment I fall into that category. **sigh** so I know how easy it is to go to the computer to reach out into the vast world and BE HEARD!!!!!!!!!! Be heard about what exactly?? Many of these offenders swarm to mothering sites and tell other Mothers everything they are doing WRONG!!!!!! OH DEAR GAWD!! What are they thinking?? Do you not realize that many of these women are hormonal and carry very big weapons that they would use except they have 4 children attached to their breasts while they are ripping you a new one AT THE KEYBOARD.
Yes, that incident didn't make me popular either. A woman was telling me what a horrible mother I was because I had given my daughter a well deserved swat to her bottom meanwhile she had been posting for a solid 23 hours. Hmmmmmmmm......how exactly is this person a better mother when she is permanently attached to her computer?? I wonder where her 4 children were?? Apparently it is bad etiquette to point that out.
So I guess I'm wondering WHY these roaming packs of rabid gangs form. I understand that birds of a feather flock together but I also know it is in people's differences that we find intrigue and expand our horizons. So what is the answer. I think I've come to the conclusion that it is WEAKNESS. I can see me getting flamed badly for that comment. Gang members while are strong within their unit are completely weak outside of it. Strong willed people don't need to conform to feel validated or comforted. They know themselves, know their opinions and don't need a supporting group to make them feel good about their opinions.
The next pondering is why is it becoming epidemic on the internet?? Is it because of the anonymity? This I can say....I'm not guilty of. If I have something to say to you I will just say it...to your face or otherwise. Most but certainly not all of the culprits feel that sense of security that no one will ever know who they are. Would half these mothers speak this way to their neighbour?? To a stranger?? Would they join together with other mothers to harrass the newest mother of a group?? No they would not. They might think it but they would NEVER act on it.
So how do we put an end to this?? Good question. The answer is the hardest of all. You ignore them. Turn the other cheek. HA! That comment always made me laugh. Why on earth would I turn the other cheek.....so they can slap that side or kick you in the ass??? However, it is true. People who roam the threads in these gangs do so because it makes them feel powerful. This power is a delusion. The gang helps to validate them....sad really. So, should you find yourself in this situation try to fight that urge to reply. They thrive on your response. The more you reply, the ruder, the more ignorant and the more outrageous their behaviour will get. Sadly, I have issues with this. I am a born to argue kind of girl. I was Captain of our Debate team, if there was an under dog I was defending it and a worthy cause supporting it. Not to mention I come from a long line of sarcastic sots and knew nothing else but to fight your way to the top. Otherwise you got eaten.
So this is an area I'm working on. I am TRYING to ignore that debating instinct and the overwhelming to urge to scream!!!!!! *laffs hard* Seriously, let's not feed the trolls. These are insignificant windbags who are fooling themselves with delusions of grandeur when their real lives no doubt are pitiful and meaningless. Why else would they cut others down to make themselves feel good?? Because on the inside.....they feel bad.